Friends, Family & Carers Forum

[Former-Member]

Hi @PeppiPatty

My partner gets talkative as well and will try to engage me in what I feel is negative conversation. I find I get caught off guard at times and end up in a debate I have no real interest in or at the receiving end on a long lecture. @Appleblossom seems to have some understanding of this. If I catch it in time I will divert it by trying to shift attention to something else although I have tried at times to confront and say I don't want to talk about this right now which might seem the most honest, sometimes I think it is kinder to be less honest.

If your partner is on medication have you considered if that might be affecting his thinking and making him talk more I know that ad's can cause mania in some people. Although I am sorry I have not seen many of your posts so not aware of your story so not trying to say this is your situation.

My idea of inactive listening would be that there is a degree of choice. It is when I feel I have no choice that I would start to strengthen my boundaries and seek some help.

Cheers.

[Former-Member]

Hello @Appleblossom,

As usual you have well thought out thoughts.

Although I did not get to engage directly with the "Open Dialogue" thread it was very interesting. Also I think as well relevant to the whole idea of compassion fatigue. It gives hope I think that people who are suffering a mental illness and their families do not become isolated. 

[Appleblossom]

At times I have submitted to a loved ones psychotic rants and raves and rages ... but only sometimes has it been useful.  I submitted for various reasons, trying to be available, help, understand, weather the storm, etc.

I think the nature of relationship matters a lot too ... I did the same thing with both my dead siblings... had better luck with my husband .. guiding him through psychotic assertions a lot ... but had most luck with my son ... who was my real responsilbity.

If the relationship is more equal like a spousal relationship then I think the type of caring needed in the role is different.  I would not submit myself to as much in husband wife situation as in parent child.

I can relate to your feeling of being "forced" to stay in a situation ... @Former-Member I used to feel like that with most of my female friends when younger ... I was too passive ... I was like that in all relitionships ... and that it is why it is such a relief for me to see my son to catch himself ... and develop many different roles ... he can also be very helpful and caring and patient.

There were a few times when I did say things like ... I have been listening and being with you for 2 hours and you have rebuffed or cut me off in anything I say ... do you want a conversation with yourself ... do you want me to be present with you  ... should I go etc ... I didnt want to leave him in those states but I did want him to be able to consider how I was feeling or how any "other" might experience him in those states. 

I never said those things when he was fully psychotic ...but then I have difficulty telling what is psychotic and what is not ... I would have stayed attentive til I passed out. There was no other help available.

[PeppiPatty]

@Former-Member writes....."If your partner is on medication have you considered if that might be affecting his thinking and making him talk more I know that ad's can cause mania in some people. Although I am sorry I have not seen many of your posts so not aware of your story so not trying to say this is your situation.

My idea of inactive listening would be that there is a degree of choice. It is when I feel I have no choice that I would start to strengthen my boundaries and seek some help."

REally good for me to think about this. It's been an absolute nightmare today. I was drivimg for over 4 hours because he wanted to purchase me a lime and lemon tree....He got into my type of looking....on Gumtree and we needed to drive to some obscure place....it's really hot and stressful driving...I see a lady on side of the road trying to get her car that broke down .......out of the traffic...she doesnt have a mini skirt on and no one helping her....... My husband yelling dont stop...I stop and help and then......Oh arent we wonderful and we helped..........

This time is funny but slightly stressful and then lots of driving. 

I feel so stressed and I think that I get the wrong end of the stick as well.

My husband really wants the best for me and what is very stressful is that my Mum is definately going through a phase and I have no idea how to stop her ......imagining these things about me .....husband just said...stop talking to her, dont see her dont email her. 

Golly. 

[Appleblossom]

@Former-Member I want to highlight your point about families becoming isolated.

They say it takes a whole village to raise a child.

When the family or social support network is small - eg 1 or 2 people - the stresses are high. It becomes a tragedy when blame and guilt are elevated in what was potentially a situation of love and good will.  Unfortunately I have seen this happen a lot, in my own family and others  Then casual assumptions about MI being genetic occurs and stigma grows. Bu.t the real problem is lack of resources.  If blame becomes fixed and reactive formations occur in the individuals of a family unit it is difficult to distinguish between what is social and what is hereditary.

It is very difficult to remain caring and loving when reactive formations have set in. 

I agree with @Former-Member sometimes it is better to be candid and honest than pretend to being interested when a carer is not.  It does not mean that they dont care for the person has a whole but are stating a clear boundary and value in their own interests, time etc.  A carer should not be in submission to the person cared for.  it is difficult to negotiate. Especially in cases of MI there is a need for the sufferer to claim their own AGENCY.  Agency is different to manipulating another to do things for ... AGENCY means power over one's self and choices in the wider world. It doesnt mean power over one's loved ones.

As a parent I always valued teaching my children independance and self esteem through making their own choices and not in their attachment to me. It worked too well with my girls. It backfired in away with my son .. as he firmly rejected the outside world for a while .. and therefore became apparently dependant on me ... but we seem to be working that through.

He is off this morning to a scholarship workshop.  we had a little singing practise before he left.

I called him "Bello" as he left and of course in typical redblooded Aussie male he revolted ... "Shut up and go away mum" ... aha aha .. I said you are smiling ... "Shut up and go away" He said again, I kissed him and said it is ok if you say that  and you are smiling in that way .. not when you are angry ... he nodded..  we parted laughing.

2 weeks ago my son expressed full blooded anger at me and grief for his loss of confidence in his life path ... for things that werent my fault but were completely his reality .. and I knew he had to do it. It is scary when 6 foot 5 inches is in full rage.  But with my son it is exceeding rare. It only lasted about 15-20 minutes. I had given him permission to do it last month when I was coaching his then girlfriend to stop self harming in front of us and trying explain the difference between clean anger and resent and sulking and  Anger turned in and turned outwards etc.

I believe everybody has the right to expression of genuine clean anger without hurting anyone else. Some how my son managed to do it up at the Alps and it was shocking, but anger is attached to our life force so is not evil per se.

For me that is huge ... the separation issues in our family have been huge .. so to be able to part joking and happily this morning .. when productive things are afoot is wonderful.

At the moment I dont feel compassion fatigue but I did when I joined forum. A main thread of my involvement on this forum was to get space and support for myself.  Thank you all.

Dear @PeppiPatty women are often more pro-social than men, but it sounds to me like maybe your hubby wants to have turn at being the good guy... not just a problem person.  I am proud of @LittleBuddha wanting to get you a citrus tree ... and getting into good food ... it might help his swell around his middle.   Glad I dont have to cope some bloke in my ear all the time though ... and they think we do all the talking hmmmm.  cheers bella.

[Loopy]

@PeppiPatty, you are a wsonderful warm human being. You should be proud of yourself for stopping, well done. You will have to learn to say no to your partner and say to him, "What a wonderful thought , I thank you but would you mind if we did it another day as I am not feeling well today, and explain that you are stressed and your mind would not capable of concentration on driving long distances and I am sure he understand.

the looped one.

[PeppiPatty]

VEry good @Appleblossom I cannot believe your ....knowledge... wow....

I think you are right on the lack of recources. But I canot hold onto much today.....Im getting there. You are right on the @LittleBuddah planting of a tree or two. 

I am thinking how he shows me kindness while Im dealing with an age old problem with my Mum. 

This sentence of yours caught my eye.

YOu write :

"Especially in cases of MI there is a need for the sufferer to claim their own AGENCY. Agency is different to manipulating another to do things for ... AGENCY means power over one's self and choices in the wider world. It doesnt mean power over one's loved ones."

Do you mean agenda as well?? I've noticed, living in public housing....money seems to turn people's whole days around.......Whenever I give money, I always give it as a gift....you should see the dtress that happens when they think ya gotta pay the loaner back........

[Appleblossom]

Yes I think agenda is also a good way to look at it.  @PeppiPatty

Some money is important ,but sometimes it is pride and not goodness, manners or generosity that gives the well-to-do a sense of power over others.

Different demographics prioritise different issues.

For some dress or punctuality is way TOO important.

I have also noticed how hard it is for some people to accept my generosity when they are aware of the level of poverty in my childhood issues. But one of the richest ladies in choir accepted my spare piano and it enabled her to teach and bond with her grandkids nd also helped her be more honest about her family issues than keep everything behind closed doors.

I have also noticed how easy it is for some people to bulldoze and insist on paying for a coffee rather than dig deeper into their souls and seek to UNDERSTAND.

I wish I knew how to help you with your mum.  I couldnt figure it out with mine, though I tried very hard. In the end my mother's desperate need to show off her relationship with her abandoned at 6 months, but rich son, meant she engaged in a lot of divide and conquer for plane trips and invitations, which menat she lost her abilty to love me.  It is still sad and a mess for both of her daughters.  If she hadnt been so desperate to deny or white-wash her loss of her children for her own conscience, my extended family might be in a better situation and the cousins more connected.

The nature of mother daughter realtionships is a huge problem for feminists.  It is not enough for those who struck lucky to boast that they have a good relationship. Often those mothers are easy compared to others.

Hang in there @PeppiPatty if doing good makes you feel better and the next person, keep doing it.  @LittleBuddha has to learn to accept that his female love is good and not a dreadful temptress or all the others characterisations that float around about women. Can he rise to that challenge and not be opposite her so bad but simply male to her female.

I am far too old and hippyish to think about sex as wicked  ... polarities re attraction are a problem if men feel to be manly they have to be bad.

[PeppiPatty]

Sex? What that?? No...none of it here....... lol

[fran]

I am so glad to find out that this is what I have got at the moment, COMPASSION FATIQUE explains me to a tee. I have grappled with the thinking that I am a person who can't say NO.  But I can and I do.

 Simply put I am a caring person, and if I didn't do what I do I would not be the person I am, and that would really concern me. To Thine Own Self Be True.

I have had many friends and family pass away in the last year, and my time has been spent here, there and everywhere. I know that I need to get back to making time for me, and what is good for me. After all said and done, I really cannot be sincerely compassionate to others, if I am not being compassionate and nurturing to myself first.

  Before I logged on to this conversation this morning, I asked myself the question, "Am I feeling powerless, cynical and sceptical with the mental health system because I am tired, or am I tired because I feel the mental health system is not inclusive enough?"  When I think about it I think it is a bit of both.  Thank you everyone for being here.